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Transcript: What is the role of marketing in a circular economy? with Alena Kuzniatsova

Transcript: What is the role of marketing in a circular economy? with Alena Kuzniatsova

SEE THE SHOW NOTES AND LISTEN AT: What is the role of marketing in a circular economy? with Alena Kuzniatsova

Katherine Whalen [00:00:03]

Hi there, Katie here with a very special announcement and invitation. I've recently had a number of listeners reach out and suggest that we have a place to continue the conversation off air. So I've created a LinkedIn group called Getting in the Loop podcast, and I would like to invite you to join. The aim of the group is to allow you to connect with other Getting in the Loop Podcast listeners and discuss the episodes, as well as share other Circular economy related news & views. I'm really excited for this group because I sometimes find it challenging to share everything that I find out about Circular economy on the podcast alone. So I personally plan to use the group to share more information, especially events that I think might be relevant for you listeners. Again, you can find the link to this group in the show notes, and you can also find it by searching Getting in the Loop podcast on LinkedIn.

[00:00:59] Hi, I'm Katie Whalen. And join me each week when I talk with experts around the globe about Circular economy.

[00:01:06] You'll find out what's being done to make it a reality and if it can really solve the problems it promises. It's time for Getting in the Loop.

[00:01:16] Welcome back to the Getting in the Loop Podcast. I hope you're ready for another jam packed episode. Today, Alena from Orange Bird Marketing Agency is here to help us discover how marketing can be used to create a more circular economy. After working in different marketing functions for over 15 years, Alena founded Orange Bird in 2017, which is an agile marketing agency focusing on serving companies who use circular business models and aim to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In this episode, Alena shares a significant amount of knowledge about marketing in a short amount of time. First, we covered the difference between two types of marketing, traditional marketing and agile marketing, before we reflect on how marketing can be used to help create a more circular economy. And Alena shares some examples of the types of work that she does in her agency. The conversation was a true eye opener for me because Aleena dispels a lot of the preexisting notions I had about marketing. Maybe you can even hear the aha moment that I have in the middle of our conversation when she talks about how marketing can be used to help closed loops, such as by encouraging return and reverse logistics of products. So if you're working on a new secular product or innovation, get ready to find out why you might want to start knocking on the door of your marketing department.

[00:02:43] Without further ado, here is Alena from Orange Bird. Welcome to the Getting in the Loop Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show today.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:02:52]

Yes. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time.

Katherine Whalen [00:02:57]

Well, before we get into Orange Bird and what we're going to talk about today and in terms of marketing, let's start off with a bit of a general introduction. So if you could just tell us a little bit about your background and Orange Bird.

Alena Kuzniatsova[00:03:12]

Personally, I have been doing marketing for 18 years, both as a marketer and as head of marketing in several big technology companies. And during this time in my career, I have been responsible for different marketing projects, areas. And at some point I got so concerned about climate change and the consequences it can have for all of us, irrespective of where we live. And we all start seeing evidence for that. It is an unfortunate regularity which we see for heatwaves, air pollution, wildfires. The current pandemic and economic crisis are believed to be connected to disrupted ecosystems. And when I started to dive into this topic and read a lot about this, I got really overwhelmed because I have two kids and it was difficult for me to keep on doing regular marketing with the thought that my children will have no other choice but to live in the environment that we humans are disrupting because we think that the earth is at our disposal. And as a result, we use up its resources and live at the expense of future generations. I had those thoughts at, I guess, somewhere in 2016 and at that time I was really close to quitting marketing as a profession because marketing is often about stimulating consumption, increasing production and selling more. But then at some point, I realized that marketing is just an instrument. Take the hammer, for example. You can kill with it or you use it to build a house. The same with marketing. And I realized that I should use my marketing expertise as an instrument for companies which foster sustainability and enable the transition for all of us to a clean and circular economy. And this way my marketing expertise will be a good hammer and will help to preserve the planet for our children and for humanity and other species. It took me like two years to gather a strong team of like minded marketing specialists and to get involved into a project with circular economy models. And now our marketing agency, Orange Bird, is fully dedicated to marketing circular and sustainable companies. That means that we reach out to and work only with companies who consciously focus on circular business models, on reduction of waste and elimination of greenhouse gases. So it's our own conscious choice and in this way we try to contribute to the preservation of the planet.

Katherine Whalen [00:06:20]

I love your hammer example. That's such a brilliant metaphor or analogy. I always get the two - if it's a metaphor or analogy - mixed up. But I think that's brilliant and you kind of hit the nail - keeping with your saying - "You hit the nail on the head."

[00:06:39] Talking about trying to, you know, not just do less bad, but also do good and how you can use marketing for that. And for that reason, that's why I was really interested to have you come on the Getting in the Loop Podcast. So we're going to spend a lot of time in this episode unpacking that. But before we do, I thought maybe it's important to clarify for the listeners about this topic of marketing, because it is a little bit different than what we normally cover on the podcast. So you say that Orange Bird is focused on marketing and specifically, I've been seeing a lot of things about agile marketing, so maybe you could expand on that for me and for the listeners.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:07:21]

Yes, sure. I'm really happy that I stayed in this profession because now we as marketers are involved in very interesting projects for a circular economy and helping sustainable companies with our marketing expertise. That's we're already on the path of helping with sustainability. It's cool. And if we try to define marketing as we understand it, then we are really close to the understanding of Philip Kotler, the father of modern marketing. In its classical form, he stated that marketing is the science and art of researching the needs of a target market and then creating, communicating and delivering value to satisfy those needs in a profitable way. But that's classical marketing.

[00:08:16] However, with the world on the brink of a climate catastrophe and with the situation we have now, I strongly believe that marketing needs an overhaul and this classical understanding of marketing is not sufficient anymore in our reality. But I guess we'll get back to it a bit later. As far as Agile is concerned, I got acquainted with the Agile methodology back in 2013, and got very enthusiastic about it because at the time, it seemed like what politics couldn't achieve, the I.T. industry has achieved with the invention of the Agile methodology. And the essence is that it puts the end user in the center of everything, like in democracy, you have a citizen which is put at the center of everything and the system serves the citizen and not vice versa. The same with the Agile methodology and the end user. So everything revolves around the end user. And we as marketers fully devote ourselves to ensuring the maximum value to the one who is going to use this product or service. And the basic principles which help us to make sure that our marketing projects are run, according to the Agile methodology, are breaking down work into iterations with short feedback loops so that the agile team can inspect and adapt to the changing requirements and then to the changing requirements from the market and the customer, and also working with full transparency so that it's easier to spot optimization opportunities. So I believe that this methodology, an agile way of working, does not only help us to deliver value faster, but also to build democracy into our working processes.

Katherine Whalen [00:10:25]

Interesting. It sounds a bit like user-centered design, like I come from a design background, so in some way putting the user and the customer at the center, I see a little bit of overlap, but I also see it like it's influence from more tech processes as well. Like I've heard of different things like sprints and things where you try to innovate in quick amounts of time and always try to think about how to iterate things.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:10:54]

But it's also interesting that it works its magic. It may sound as some evident notions, but as soon as you use such rephrasing and redefining of any marketing problem, a traditional marketing problem, from the perspective of the end user, the solutions you come upon and then perspectives you start seeing are still very much different from what you would be working with if you continue to work from a company-based perspective or from the specific marketing perspective. So it changes the solutions we come upon when solving these standard marketing problems.

Katherine Whalen [00:11:47]

Would you maybe be able to give an example of something? Like it doesn't even have to be related to the circular economy?

[00:11:52] But just the difference in these approaches that you're saying,

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:11:56]

You would write in some marketing plans, like when defining a task or user story you would write: we need to achieve that to increase our metric like that. But now I ask everybody in our projects to define and describe any task, any new work item from the perspective of the end user. That means that any problem should be defined in the following way: I, as, and then the end user of this activity or product/service, want to do the following.

[00:12:42] And then what the end user wants to do. So that to achieve the following goal, the person responsible for these tasks, for this activity, will think so much more differently. They are really user-centric and more conscious with ideas than if they were working on something, like, we need to achieve increased sales or we need to increase the number of the downloads for this white paper. So it's totally different. It changes the perspective and solutions. It works like magic. Though it may sound like something evident.

Katherine Whalen [00:13:28]

Yeah, it sounds super fascinating. And I want to try it out as well, because I think you're just reversing basically, and you're thinking about the end user. So instead of like “we need X number of downloads of this white paper”, it's just thinking about

[00:13:44] So who is this person who actually wants to read this white paper and why are they interested to go and find this white paper? And what do they expect to learn by downloading this white paper?

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:13:55]

Exactly. Only when you start writing the task or the user story do you start thinking about why they would need the product, and what kind of goal they would achieve. Otherwise it would be like, yeah, we need to increase the downloads. We need to attract as much traffic.

Katherine Whalen [00:14:13]

Yeah. Okay. So now we're going to talk a little bit. We've talked about what marketing is and also the difference between agile marketing and traditional marketing.

[00:14:22] So thank you for that overview, Alena. I'm curious, marketing for Circular economy - is it really different from traditional or agile marketing?

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:14:34]

Yes, I believe so. Actually, I'm so happy with what you're doing. It’s helping this circular economy movement, with this podcast series and the “In the loop” game. The whole movement is exactly what we need to move from the linear economy to the circular economy. And marketing also needs to support this movement and to become a useful instrument. A good hammer for this movement. For that to happen, we as marketers need to shift the focus in that first step of marketing, which I mentioned, i.e. researching the needs of a target market and then organizing the processes to create, communicate, and deliver value to meet those needs in a profitable way. So to transition from a linear economy to a circular economy, especially in this transitional period, we as marketers need to step in. While researching the unmet needs of our target audiences, we should also explore the possibilities for circularity for our clients. What kind of opportunities exist for them to become more circular, to move up the circularity ladder, to use less resources and to eliminate waste from their production processes in general? To be more specific, in traditional marketing, marketing research is the basis, and it should remain the building block of the marketing cycle. But since we don't have a planet B, and there are insufficient resources at this planet A,  we cannot continue and cannot stay focused on selling more at a higher profit like in traditional marketing. Now, in marketing for a circular economy, market research should stay the basis for the marketers to build on. But when engaging in market research, we need to shift the focus to finding how our clients can move up the circularity ladder. And examples would be to build practices into our research process to look out for opportunities, and to notice the ways our users are re-using our product or service. We can discover new applications of our products, ways in which we can reduce the resources for creating this product or for organizing this service, and ways to improve the production processes. Those communications and research practices, like surveys and feedback from the customers and users, will provide you those insights to understand what ways exist to use our products. Some uses may guide us and help us understand how they already reuse our products. And then we can pass that information over to the R&D teams so that the manufacturing process can be tailored, so that the products can be reused in a similar way or by more users. So that we could replicate their use of our products by almost all users. Also, we can uncover opportunities for our companies when we do market research and see how those new or not fully met needs of our users are met or are now satisfied with alternatives. Do those alternatives require less resources? Do they let us come up with ideas for new products, alternative products or alternatives to our existing products, which would use up less resources and would let our companies become more circular? So those are the first steps we can build as marketers into the market research.

Katherine Whalen [00:19:19]

I see a lot of opportunity there from what you were saying, especially with talking about, like how users are currently using different products and different ways, maybe that they're being able to reuse products or how they want to be able to reuse products. Hearing you talk about these different examples, I was also thinking about the return of products or like clothing or bottles or phones and things like that. I think that there's a massive role that marketers can play there in terms of finding out how, I, as a customer, would be incentivized to actually return my mobile phone when I'm done with it. And what would that process kind of look like? And how could you as a company, make a design, a process that I would be really interested in? So that would be, you know, that that was just one example that I thought of when you were talking.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:20:18] Exactly.

Katherine Whalen [00:20:19]

So I was curious to ask you this as well, because I know that there probably are some people listening who are saying, you know, about sustainable marketing, like they would think it's a contradiction if you have sustainable marketing.

[00:20:34] So I'm just curious to hear what you would say and how you respond to people who question the whole concept that marketing can be sustainable.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:20:48]

You mean contradictory to traditional marketing, or are contradictory to their marketing for Circular economy?

Katherine Whalen [00:20:56]

I think maybe for marketing, for traditional marketing, because I think a lot of people associate marketing with trying to sell more products and get more products out the door. And that, to a lot of people, contradicts with the idea of being more sustainable. So, yeah. How do you respond to people like that?

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:21:17]

Yeah. This is unfortunately a very popular stereotype. But it's also a reality that shows how marketing often stimulates consumerism and leads to increased pollution of our planet. It's true. But again, as I mentioned in the beginning, I was concerned about this myself around five years ago. And then, as I mentioned, I realized marketing is just an instrument. First of all, it's about researching the needs. It's about understanding what needs are not met and how you can satisfy them. How can you deliver value as good marketers? Marketing has been and is about researching the needs of our target audiences and creating and delivering and communicating value to meet those needs. So to be successful for companies in doing that, marketers need to evaluate the size of the markets and to make sure those are profitable opportunities. Marketing has never been just selling what people don't need. It's about selling what people need and satisfying those needs. But even with this understanding and with this definition, it still leads to increased consumption and to increasing pollution, and to using up the resources of the planet. Taking into consideration the statistics and the data from the United Nations and from other intergovernmental bodies studying climate change, climate science and climate change data, we have so little time left to prevent the climate catastrophe that many areas will need an overhaul, including marketing. And even this good definition of marketing and good marketing practices need to be changed and be effective in regular contribution and consistent work on decreasing greenhouse emissions and decreasing waste, eliminating waste in human activities so that the earth remains livable for much longer. And in our agency, we fully believe in sustainable marketing. And as I mentioned, we work only with companies who consciously apply sustainability in their business models and consciously foster sustainability with their products and services.

[00:24:22] And I believe this might be the first stage for marketing to become sustainable.  By focusing on such companies and helping such companies succeed, sustainable products and sustainable cities replace traditional polluting products and services and take up fewer resources. They win over traditional products and services. And in this way, we can foster sustainability.

[00:25:00] For example, we could probably all think of some KPIs - key performance indicators - which would help us see the progress and measure the progress towards eliminating waste and towards decreasing greenhouse gas emissions.

[00:25:25] And I hope that as humanity, we can soon come up with such a metric because we really have so little time left to prevent this before the point of no return. And what kind of KPIs could it be? We as marketers - let me start with our profession - we could all start calculating. When we research and uncover some unmet or not fully satisfied needs, we start organizing the processes for creating value, through products or services, to meet those needs. And then we calculate not just the profits it can generate for our company, but the volume of greenhouse emissions it can reduce or eliminate or prevent from emitting. And also the waste which could be eliminated if it's a circular product and contributes to the circular economy. So this ingredient would be very important. It could also be tracked at the company level, and then at the state level, so that it’s a global KPI, which indicates how much CO2 you have eliminated, or these new products have helped you to prevent emitting.

Katherine Whalen [00:27:17]

Yeah, I think it's important to think about.

[00:27:19] And I know a lot of recent work has been focused on trying to do metrics related to circular economy. But I think sometimes they also forget, like the marketers who are trying to communicate it as well. So from what I hear you saying it, you would like some sort of metrics to be able to also communicate that to the customers.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:27:48]

The customers, definitely.

[00:27:52] So that it doesn't become a new greenwashing opportunity for marketers and for companies. I hope that we come up with some metric to measure the impact of products or services for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and eliminating waste. And for example, when you asked what sustainable marketing means, there are so many opportunities nowadays. And in our agency, when we try to narrow down and to decide on our focus, we already think of what kind of companies we could reach out to. And then the preference goes to the companies which will help everybody around to emit less CO2 in the first turn. So when we decide whether we should go to a certain event for business development purposes, we choose the events where we would meet that kind of company.

Katherine Whalen [00:29:10]

So It seems like it takes a bit of a shift as well. Like you actively have to be seeking these types of companies out.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:29:20]

So we're already trying to apply this kind of metric intuitively, but I hope it will be formalized soon. And we're going to apply it at all levels - at the professional level, at the company level, state level, and citizen level.

Katherine Whalen [00:29:38]

Yeah. So let's dive a little bit into the examples of different companies and what you have been doing, because I think I always love to learn by example.

[00:29:50] And I'm really curious to hear more about the work that you've been doing with some companies.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:29:59]

I’m really happy to speak about this because the projects are very interesting. For example, as a marketing agency, we're serving as a company called Grown.Bio. And it's a bright example of circularity. They collect and grind biomass as agricultural waste and then they add mycelium, which is actually mushroom roots. And the mycelium acts as a natural glue that binds biomass together, which is done by the company in molds of different size and shape. And then those molds, after being dried and stabilized under certain temperatures and certain humidity conditions, produce admirable products. Beautiful, biological, admirable products, which are used as furniture, packaging, construction materials, art objects, and interior objects. So it's incredible what you can do from this biological material and how easily it's composted. It's a new use of biomass as agricultural waste.

[00:31:18] As for marketing, we have helped them with their company name. They were called Krown.Bio, and we proposed they become Grown.Bio. They were looking for a new name, and we proposed the idea of Grown for their name to underscore the peculiarity of their production process. All the products are naturally grown. Then we developed the new brand identity, new logo and other elements of the brand identity. Now we're hoping to develop the marketing strategy and start redesigning the website.

And another very nice example of circularity and circular projects we work with is Deko Eko. They are a global upcycling platform which unites companies willing to turn waste into valuable products. For example, each year, Repack or some other conscious companies understand that they have a lot of waste - marketing waste like banners, office waste, or other kinds of production waste - and they don't want to just dump that waste anywhere. They want to turn it into valuable products and then they register at this upcycling platform. On the other hand, designers and creative people register on this platform and indicate what they can do from that waste, and thus they turn that waste into valuable products. And from the third side, end users and customers buy those products from this platform - very beautiful, incredibly beautiful products. Jewelry, interior products, fashion clothing and all kinds of stuff, and they are made from waste, very beautiful products. So I mean, such examples let me see and let all of us see that circular economy is viable and it's already working and it creates new opportunities, new jobs, new growth opportunities. So those previous generations of politicians or other kinds of people believed that if it's about sustainability, then it will reduce economic growth. Now, people know about the circular economy. It creates new opportunities, probably even more opportunities than we could have imagined with the linear economy. And they are so wonderful and so magically beautiful. And getting back to marketing for such projects, just to give an example and hopefully inspire other marketers to join the forces. For Deko Eko, we started in early 2019 with proposing a marketing strategy. Then we collaborated with the company to polish and to finalize the strategy. And then together we started working on that strategy. In-house, they were completely working on some elements. In the agency, we have been working on other elements like B2B advertising in LinkedIn and Google search, B2C brand awareness generation and scouting designers to join the platform and looking for those designers in Facebook and Instagram, all kinds of content marketing activities and website optimization activities. So those are examples of what marketing can do for such companies.

Katherine Whalen [00:35:23]

I love that you bring that up, Alena, because I think sometimes, you know, especially in the realm of sustainability, marketing gets like this bad rep because you think that it has to be people who are selling you things.

[00:35:40] But I mean, at the same time, you know, you've got these great companies that you're now working with and why wouldn't you want people to contribute to them and to actually become users of, for example, Deko Eko and buy these great products and utilize these great designers, for example, just to give one example of what you you're saying. So I think, you know, it's about, as you said, like finding people who are in need of something and providing that to them. So, I mean, this podcast is also marketing about Circular economy, right?

[00:36:18] So, I mean, I need someone like you as well to come and help me and put it in front of people, for example, online who want to know more about Circular economy. Right. So it's like a win win. To wrap up my thoughts, I think that we need to move away from thinking about it as something that is against the idea of economy. But actually, we can use it with us, too, as a tool to actually help create a more circular economy.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:36:56]

In a circular economy, marketing can be used as a tool to explore circularity opportunities among the target audiences, and to understand what circular opportunities exist, uncover those opportunities, and then collaborate with production specialists and R&D teams in creating the products to serve those needs. And then when the product is created, communicate that value the product can deliver to those audiences.

Katherine Whalen [00:37:34]

Yeah. So I'm curious because a lot of the podcast listeners, some of them are business developers or product managers who are working within businesses that are trying to do things related to Circular economy. But then, of course, you know, they have a marketing department at their organization and maybe their marketing team is not so much on board with the efforts that they're trying to do to create a circular product or a circular new business plan. So I imagine there's kind of a different language, so to speak, within marketing departments and or business development departments and product managers and things like that.

[00:38:21] So do you have any tips for how to communicate circular economy to the marketing department in an organization for Getting in the Loop Podcast listeners?

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:38:39]

I believe that a lot of marketers should already be aware of the circular economy concept and opportunities. And they don't need to be convinced of how beneficial it is for the planet in general, for humanity in general, but also for every specific company.

[00:38:55] Because if a company applies circular business models and reduces the amount of resources it needs for its production processes, then everybody is a winner. The company is more profitable. But still there might be a lot of marketers who do not realize that yet. And business owners and product managers might still need to do some work and communicate to their marketing departments so that this new idea and opportunities in the circular economy are internalized by the marketing teams and departments. And it would probably make sense to provide incentives at initial stages. Like considering some internal annual awards and prizes for the circular marketer of the year, circular designer of the year or the circularity idea of the year. And you could also come up with ideas on how to hold external competitions and crowdsource ideas for making your company more circular. Because I believe the circular economy is still being developed and different models are being explored. We're all still at the stage where we need to explore different opportunities and find ideas and circularity opportunities for our companies. Business owners and product managers need to build this thinking into all market research, which as I mentioned before, should be the basis for any marketing activity, any marketing projects. And I believe business owners and product managers may even want to review market research plans and questionnaires until they start thinking and the search for additional circularity opportunities become part of the daily mentality of the marketers.

Katherine Whalen [00:41:07]

That's a that's a great takeaway, actually, in terms of going to collaborate with the marketers and using the data and the knowledge that they have about the customers, the users and using that to actually help maybe guide new ideas and new innovations.

[00:41:29] Yeah, great. Great. So thank you so much for that, Alena. It has been such a pleasure to talk with you and hear more about Orange Bird and your journey to Circular economy and also, of course, marketing and agile marketing and the importance of marketing for a circular economy. And before we go, I wanted to ask you the question that I ask all of the podcast guests, which relates to the In the Loop game that I created, which is a serious game that's used in education and also sometimes in companies to engage people in systems thinking and circular economy. And in the game, you're a product producing company and you have to travel the world to collect the materials that are needed to make your product. But there's different events that happen in the game. So there are sometimes events that help you at acquiring materials, but also sometimes there are events that disrupt your ability to produce products, to acquire materials, basically they hinder you in achieving your company goals. So the question that I ask all guests is, if you could create an event for the in the loop game, what kind of event would you focus on?

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:42:47]

Very good question. And cool that you're working on such a game. I hope more and more people will learn about this game. And if I were to suggest an event or an ingredient for this game, which is more in line with the ideas mentioned above, I would suggest adding the event called “Level up”, which would engage the users to begin to think how their company or organization can move up the ladder of the circular economy hierarchy.

[00:43:26] I hope we can share with the podcast listeners the link to the article of the World Economic Forum, where the author lays out the contrast between the linear economy’s waste management hierarchy where waste is an indispensable element of the economy, and the circular economy’s hierarchy where it's believed that waste can be eliminated in general from the production processes and from human activities.

[00:44:16] And when users look at that hierarchy, they see that there are different degrees to which your company can be circular, to which your product is circular and thus whether your company is still part of the linear economy or if you're already applying a circular business model, it is still possible to move up in the circular economy hierarchy.

[00:44:42] And it would be cool if your game would engage them in thinking and realizing their current level in the circular economy hierarchy, what is the next level, and how can they achieve that next level?

Katherine Whalen [00:44:59]

Brilliant. I love it. And I think it's always important to think about, like what's next and how can we level up? And I'll definitely include the link to this report in the show notes on the podcast Website, and also include other links if you have other things that you want. Of course, your Website for Orange Bird, but also other links, if you think of any that you'd like to share with the listeners.

Alena Kuzniatsova [00:45:27]

Yeah, I would encourage everybody to visit our blog at Orange-Bird.agency, not because it's our agency's website and we would love to support more circular companies, but because it does contain a lot of useful resources about sustainability and blog posts with marketing tips, which I believe will be helpful for podcast listeners. As for non-marketing materials about the circular economy and sustainability, we are often inspired with articles of  the World Economic Forum and with the initiatives of Solar Impulse Foundation. Actually, the founder of the Solar Impulse foundation, Bertrand Piccard, is my role model. I believe many of you have heard about him. He was the one who has flown around the world using just solar energy, and he is the person who in general believes that the problem of climate change should be regarded as a fantastic challenge. Yeah, it's a global problem. But the more challenging it is, the more opportunities it creates for everybody. So he looks at every problem, including global problems, with a positive and constructive attitude. And it’s so inspiring that I would recommend everybody to follow him and to listen to his thoughts and advice.

Katherine Whalen [00:47:06]

Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. For show notes and links, go to our website at GettingInTheLoopPodcast.com, and while you're there, subscribe to our mailing list to have new episodes delivered to your inbox every Monday. See you next week.

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About the Show

Getting In the Loop is a weekly podcast dedicated to exploring how to transform to a more circular society. Join host Katie Whalen as she examines the challenges facing our current resource use and discovers alternatives to the ‘take, make, dispose’ way of doing things. Each week she interviews circular economy experts about what they’re doing and learning. Together we'll uncover what circular economy means in practice and find out what's being done to keep our resources in a loop rather than sent to waste.

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