SEE THE SHOW NOTES AND LISTEN AT:  From Construction Waste to Second Life: Making Reuse of Building Materials Happen

Katie Whalen [00:00:00] From construction waste to second life making reuse of building materials happen with Joe Connell.

[00:00:11] Hi, I'm Katie Whalen and join me each week as I talk with experts around the globe about Circular Economy. You'll find out what's being done to make it a reality and if it can really solve the problems it promises. It's time for Getting in the Loop.

[00:00:28] Welcome back to the Getting in the Loop Podcast. I'm Katie Whalen and I wanna give a big thank you to all of those who have left reviews on our iTunes' page. Last week we started our Earth Day giveaway in collaboration with last week's podcast episode guest Catherine Weetman. Catherine is the author of a Circular Economy Handbook for Business and Supply Chains, and she graciously gave me a copy of her book to give away to one lucky listener. To have a chance at winning, all you need to do is leave a review of this podcast on iTunes. I'll be drawing one review at random on May 1st. So you still have some time to get your review up on the items page. To learn how to leave a review on iTunes, even without an account, check out the show notes of Katherine's episode, episode 8 at gettinginthelooppodcast.com.

[00:01:23] So definitely leave a review and be entered to win this great giveaway and get in the loop with Catherine's book. Now onto today's episode.

[00:01:35] Today on the show, we're talking with Joe Connell, the executive director of the Building Materials Reuse Association, also known as BMRA. Joe's been in the building trades since age 15 and has 20 years of experience in the reuse industry with many accomplishments, including helping to launch several local reuse groups in Portland, Oregon, and serving on the City of Portland's Deconstruction Advisory Group to pass the nation's first deconstruction ordinance. In this episode, Joe tells us about the BMRI right and shares his knowledge of the building materials reuse landscape in the U.S.. We focus on current opportunities, challenges and trends regarding building deconstruction and material reuse.

[00:02:22] Thank you so much for being here, Joe. It's great to have you.

Joe Connell [00:02:26] Hi, Katie. Nice to be here. Thank you.

Katie Whalen [00:02:28] You are the executive director of the Building Materials Reuse Association. Could you tell us about this association? How did it come about and how does it work?

Joe Connell [00:02:41] BMRI is actually celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. So we've been around a long time. We were started back in the early 90's by a bunch of old deconstructors and reused folks and some folks from the forest research industry just trying to figure out how we could- how they can make a difference. You know, a lot of a lot of the work of deconstruction over the last 50 years or so has been very much under the radar. You know, deconstruction and reuse went underground for for a long time. And it's nice to see it making a resurgence again. But for a long time, it was up to small individual local operators doing much of the much of the reuse. So BMRI grew out of that movement early on. And we're still here promoting reuse and deconstruction nationally and a little bit internationally. We work with folks in Canada and in Europe a little bit as well and Australia, so figure out.

Katie Whalen [00:03:46] It's really fascinating. And as you say, it's sort of like this resurgence as well. In this interest in decon deconstruction, I was thinking who do you work with on a day to day basis?

Joe Connell [00:04:00] Well, our core group is we're a member based association. So it said we've got a couple of hundred members in the countries I mentioned. Most of our membership tends to be actually constructors.

[00:04:16] Contractors who take buildings apart, reuse professionals who operate reuse centers. We also have a number of cycles, people that take the materials claim from deconstruction and turn them into a new product or cycle into into a value added product. We're also finding that we're connecting more and more with people in other cultures are connected industries. People who work and sustainability, pollution control, people who are connected to city or state or regional. Governments that have an agenda to to reduce waste or other things like other other goals that are then reuse and deconstruction can assist with. So more and more, we're connecting with those folks as well. We also are involved a lot more with with researchers and students who are doing sustainability programs and are seeing reuse and deconstruction as a is a very interesting opportunity for development.

Katie Whalen [00:05:24] I'm thinking is there a specific type of material you're often working with or you find your members are working with? Or is it more concrete? Wood, yeah.

Joe Connell [00:05:34] Our industry again, because growing up with with a lot of smaller local non-profits and operators, the low hanging fruit, if you will, tend to be residential. So that's pretty much what our what our industry's grown up around, you know. And the value in residential homes is typically in furnishing soft stripped things like doors and windows, architectural salvage materials, things like that.

[00:06:00] The thing about a true deconstruction where you take the building down in reverse order is to get at the lumber, you get at some of the meat and the bones, which oftentimes has a lot of value. You know, you look at a home built in 1920's here on the East Coast and there's beautiful old old pine, old hard pine. You know, a 200 year old stuff go down south. It's it's yellow pine. You go up, you go out West Cliff, Northern California and the northwest. And there there's two by 10 cedars framing. And this this material is just incredibly valuable, maybe not always monetarily, but it's a resource that we that we won't see again. And typically it's being wasted. So that's that's the deepest value coming out of deconstruction and reuse. Now, commercial commercial is a whole nother. Oh, that's a big one, because it's virtually untapped territory except for old burns, old warehouses, things like that that are easy to to get at the materials, 20th century buildings that are built with a lot of concrete, very hard to get, a lot of value construction out of it. That said, I didn't know of a giant warehouse in Portland, Oregon, that was built of two by sixes on the flat, laid up the entire factory and the whole thing was dismantled. And all the two by sixes, which were all beautiful old clear Doug fir from back in the day, it was all dismantled and that beautiful virgin virgin dug for it was saved. So it is possible to do it on a large scale.

Joe Connell [00:07:49] That's that's crazy. I'm thinking a lot of times when I think about reuse and materials, like from coming from my perspective of buildings, I think of, you know, these giant skyscrapers or, you know, at least commercial buildings. But that's just one aspect of it. You have all of these other types of buildings, the commercial, the residential, and also what you say about the preservation with the different types of materials sources as well. The cedars that you mentioned, for example, I've never thought about it like that before. So it's quite interesting.

Joe Connell [00:08:25] There's also you mentioned preservation, there's also we're doing more work and making more deeper connections with historical preservation folks. Typically historic preservation folks say, you know, don't tear home down.

[00:08:39] And I totally support that. Historic homes. It should not be the first option by any means. But if a building, a historic building is going to come down, we need to salvage as much of that material as we possibly can.

[00:08:56] And that's where historic preservationist and roots construction industries are starting to find each other and talk to each other, not about taking the building down just for the material. But if something has to come down, make the highest use of the materials that you possibly can.

Katie Whalen [00:09:14] Yeah. Is there's some way that this knowledge is being being shared amongst, you know, the deconstruct here in the East Coast to deconstruct or in the West Coast.

Joe Connell [00:09:25] Yeah. Historically, our organization is has been a little more internally focused. So we've been trying to network. And get to know each other, cause a lot of people, like you said, people in the East Coast doing deconstruction didn't know about people on the West Coast. So we most of our 25 years has been about building that industry internally and learning from each other and creating networks and supporting each other. In the last few years, we've started to look a little more externally and started and are trying now to really embrace other industries, especially with the with the evolution of circular economy and zero waste and lifecycle building, things like that. People are starting to look at the built environment very differently and looking at the potential for how differently we could do it. And our role now we see as turning out a little more outward to those folks and saying, hey, don't forget about deconstruction of reuse. They're extremely valuable tools that if you're addressing how we build buildings better and how we look at our built environment, they're extremely valuable tools to help meet and goals of salvaging materials and diverting waste. And the other aspect is we represent a side that keeps it local. A lot of a lot of these movements are very big, they're involving huge corporate international players. But when we don't want to forget as we start moving towards a circular economy is that we need to involve the local folks in the grassroots folks. One of the really fun things about our industry has deconstructed materials and and reuse centers tend to keep them materials local. And available to people who who need them. You know, a lot of a lot of ah, I ran reuse centers out Portland, Oregon for 13 years and a lot of our customers were were needs based. And we sold this material at a fraction of the price that the materials wood would sell for new out in the market. So not only is there the environmental benefit of salvaging this material so that we're not taking more yet more raw material out of out of the earth, but it's also taking this valuable material out of our standing buildings, turning them back into the community to create more jobs. Deconstruction, for example, will employ seven people for every one person doing demolition. And that's local jobs that are entry level positions basically for, you know, that really work well for programs serving people at barriers, unemployed, underemployed folks, things like that. And then those materials can go back into those homes. And and give people a chance to upgrade their homes. So it's it's a it's a very localized way to keep that circle going.

Katie Whalen [00:12:28]  I think a lot of times, especially with the interest in Circular economy, it's been this focus that it has to be, you know, big global players. So what I like about the BMRI. is the fact that you're saying no, actually, a lot of this, you know, the building and construction sector, it's not just about, you know, commercial buildings. It's not just about at a global scale, but it's also, you know, the local local people and social and environmental aspect.

[00:13:03] Yeah, the other thing I'll point out there, if I can take a moment is deconstruction.

[00:13:10] Reuse is nothing new. You know, we've been doing that with the built environment since. Are our ancient ancestors stacked one one rock on top of another to built a shell, build a shelter? You know, when that shelter fell down, they took the rocks and moved it, you know, across the path to build it, to to build it again. We're talking about. How we've always done it and the change really didn't come about until post-World War Two. Prior to that. Local deconstruction, dismantling, salvage reuse, some materials was the norm.

[00:13:50] Then no one even thought about it. You know, it's like it's like the folks talking now about, oh, yeah, we can make bottles that can be collected at your door and refill them with with soda or something. You know, the old milk man model. It's like, OK, well, I remember milk. We had a milk man. I think he was awesome. My mom's bookie. But that's another story.

[00:14:15] So, you know, we're coming back to what we've always known how to do. And it wasn't it wasn't necessarily globalized. It was localized.

[00:14:26] Now, there are some very, very big companies taking skyscrapers down in New York City postwar. But it was all done by hand and minimal, minimal machine. Now we need to find a way to balance those to take advantage of modern technology and machinery and know how. But go back to those grass roots of saying, wow, this still has value. The easy days of taking raw materials out of the earth, shipping them around the world, building a structure and then throwing all of it away 50 years later has to end.

Katie Whalen [00:15:05] Yes, I agree. I would agree with that. And I'm thinking in terms of the that the technology that you that you mentioned about technology with deconstruction, has there been a lot of. Have you seen improvements in the last couple of 10, 15, 20 years or interest in technology and deconstruction?

Joe Connell [00:15:28] Absolutely. Yeah. One one thing and the deconstruction side is using its what we call hybrid deconstruction, where you actually use machines to help take a building apart into large pieces like a chainsaw on a backhoe. Cut the roof off, lift it off, set it down on the ground and then people can much more easily take it apart and salvage materials off of that. There's several variations of mechanized deconstruction that can come to play there on large scale that could be developed immensely. You know, I'm thinking of commercial work again. On the other on the other side of the coin. I was just at a building called the Candy Cane Data Building down in Atlanta. It's at the site, the campus of Georgia Tech. And they. It's a living, living life cycle building and one.

[00:16:32] What they did for the second floor platforms is they used to buy for and to buy six materials on edge nailed to each other. So they did as much timber as absolutely possible on this. This is a new development as well. A lot of people are looking at timber, timber, construction, because timbers. Much more renewable. And then it embodies carbon and it can be replaced much more quickly than concrete. So we're looking folks are looking again, a timber bill. And how we can do even timber skyscrapers.

Katie Whalen [00:17:05] Yes. It's really cool.

Joe Connell [00:17:08] Yeah, it's very cool. But this this particular project used Virgin to buy six material for the structural integrity sandwiched between reclaimed two by four because the two, but the two by six, creating enough structural integrity that they didn't need to rely on the integrity of the two by four. So they made decks 10 by 10 decks out of alternating, two by four, two by six, all nailed together and then put them in place on and on beams that were color beams and that became the floor and the ceiling.

[00:17:44] And it was all reclaimed. And they saved a huge amount of money, evidently doing it over over buying all new material. Wow. So there's there's a lot of very smart people starting to think about how they can how we can build differently. And the other aspect to that is building for deconstruction or designing for deconstruction. Architects and engineers thinking, how can we create and how can we design and build a building so that 50, 100 years from now it can be broken down very easily into its components and reused?

Joe Connell [00:18:20]  I've heard a I've heard some about MIT buildings as material banks. This kind of idea of design for the you know, for the future. And yeah, I'm coming from the perspective of being in Europe and hearing about that. So is there a lot that's also being discussed in the US regarding that?

Joe Connell [00:18:41] Yeah, I I looked at the building for materials banks, BMV and Brussels. I think it is. And it's really brilliant. What they put together their. We haven't gotten quite that far as far as how we articulate it or even how we measure it. As you know, in the states, we have 50 states and a federal government. And sometimes it seems like if they talk to each other, they're talking in 51 different languages. So it's hard to make centralized change. Unfortunately. EPA should be given a lot more authority and a lot more responsibility to coordinate these efforts. Unfortunately, they're not. So there's my political bandwagon. They there are a lot of people, though, talking about bank and land materials, banks. EPA has a group called the Sustainable- What is it? S and M.  Sustainable Materials Management Group, and they do look at at the materials that are that are in our built environment at this point one. One basic thing we have estimated is that right now there is about a billion board feet of two by 6 and 2 by 4 material standing in U.S. homes.

Katie Whalen [00:20:09] A billion did you say?

Joe Connell [00:20:11] A billion, over a billion usually. Now if we look at- I read another estimate that 30 percent of US homes will probably be taken down in one way or another within the next 50 years.

Katie Whalen [00:20:26] Really?

Joe Connell [00:20:27] That's a lot of wood, a lot of wood coming out of US homes. Well, you think about of a lot of the homes in the US were built postwar.

Katie Whalen [00:20:36] Yeah. No, it makes sense if I think about it.

Joe Connell [00:20:38] Yeah.

Katie Whalen [00:20:39] But yeah. But you- But to really think about that because that's one of the things as well about, you know, the fact that we're looking at buildings as material banks and the design of buildings and now for for the future. But you maybe miss all of this opportunity of what's coming. It's going to be coming up quite soon.

Joe Connell [00:20:57] And what's going to replace those homes? Where are those materials going to come from? Are they all going to come from raw materials from our forests? From from mining? I hope not.

Katie Whalen [00:21:13] Well, it sounds like a good opportunity for the BMRA.

Joe Connell [00:21:16] I hope so. I think so. Yes. I hope we can take advantage of it.

Katie Whalen [00:21:20] Yeah. So, Joe,  I also see that the BMRA has an upcoming conference. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?

Joe Connell [00:21:29] Yeah, our annual conference, which we've been doing for years, draws together historically, drew together mostly deconstruction, reuse professionals, because we were all lonely people operating in different parts of the countries. We'd love to get together, but the last few years it's really morphed into more of like I was saying before, that our turning and our conference is trying to draw together the various industries that are also part of the built environment architects, designers, engineers, waste haulers, city officials, folks like that, anybody who is involved in the built environment and the handling of materials. We want we want to address that. We want to make sure that deconstruction reuse is part of those conversations, be at Circular wconomy, zero waste landfill diversion. So our conference typically has two or three tracks or this year we'll have two or three tracks that we're hoping will introduce the construction and reuse on a deeper level. To our our fellow builders and environmentalists.

Katie Whalen [00:22:42] Yeah. Excellent. So that's an that's in Pittsburgh in October.

Joe Connell [00:22:46] Yeah, that'll be Pittsburgh, October. Pittsburgh, a fun town to sell. And we're going to be at the, we're gonna be at the Phipps Botanical Garden Center at the Botanical Garden. It's one of the highest rated buildings in the world for sustainability on leads. And three other words that I can't think of off the top of my head. I'm sorry.

Katie Whalen [00:23:11] Seems like the perfect venue for  a discussion on deconstruction and material reuse. So, yeah, we'll have links to this in the show Notes for listeners who want to check this out. I've been thinking about this during the call and I wanted to just ask for clarification. So I'm familiar because I do some work with like circular business models and different business models and know of different platforms that, you know, people can trade materials on. Does the BMRA I have this type of platform or or do the local sort of deconstructors and material reuse use reusers, like use their own platforms and there's a variety of platforms spread out across the US, for instance.

Joe Connell [00:23:58] Yeah. I think what you're basically asking about is material marketplace.

Katie Whalen [00:24:04] Yes, that's that's the correct word, I guess.

Joe Connell [00:24:07] We haven't cracked the code on that yet because like like you imply there are a lot of of our folks all over the country have either very localized platforms, either word of mouth or a reuse center with a local clientele. I know one day constructor that when he is taking part of house, he just puts it out on Facebook where he's gonna be and what he's taken out that day. And his client tells show up and haul it off. So we have not gotten to although some people have tried. We've not gotten to the place where there's really a national materials marketplace.

[00:24:47] If somebody out there would really love has a really good idea about how that can happen. Love to talk to him about it. I know of of a couple of folks that are trying planet reuse tried years ago, but could never get it off the ground. There's a fella in California doing starting up something called Recapture it, which is an attempt at that.

[00:25:11] The things that go against go and make it difficult are the volume of these materials and the difficulty in transporting them. Smaller items that people are wanting for their homes are not typically going to search for them very far, nor be willing to pay to transport them very far. On the other end of the scale, you get commercial developers or architects and engineers who could scale up tremendously and take a lot of used materials off of somebodies hand. You know, I've heard stories of this and in Brussels through the through BNP.

[00:25:53] But how do you know that material has to be stored? That costs money has to be transported. So it's that value added piece and connecting the dots. You have a materials marketplace for for reuse. You might have a warehouse full of bricks that are all very usable. How long does it take you to scale down those to sell off all those bricks that you're paying storage on and things like that? So it's not like Etsy where you can, you know, or eBay where you can, you know, some somebody can throw it in a box and mail it off to you tomorrow. It's a much more complicated marketplace because of the volume and the size of the materials we're talking about. That said, I know it can be done. I'm just not that one smart enough to do it, so.

Katie Whalen [00:26:44] You just don't have the time probably.

Joe Connell [00:26:46] I don't have the time, nor nor the talent to create a marketplace. But I think there's amazing opportunity out there for it.

Katie Whalen [00:26:57] You do bring up a good point, which is a lot of the the challenges that I also have encountered, one of the challenges I hear about material reuse is the cost between primary materials and secondary materials. What is your perspective on this and your experience on this?

Joe Connell [00:27:16] Oh, I have so many thoughts on that. If the place I have to start, though, is it it really comes down to how how we measure cost. We don't measure true cost accurately of our price.

[00:27:30] Our primary materials for raw materials coming out of another country, we have absolutely no no measure of of of that. You know, we're seeing the effects of it now with climate change. You know, we deforest the Amazon and for various reasons for our commodities and we changed the climate on the planet. How do you measure that cost twice? It really is. The primary answer to that question is we're just not measuring true cost. I look at it a two by four. For example, you go to Home Depot and get a two by four for a few dollars. Unbelievable how cheaply they can sell a two by four when you think about where it's been and how it's traveled. It was a tree. It was cut down, maybe not by hand anymore, but cut down by a person in it and a machine sitting in a bucket or something. It's cut down. It's hauled to a mill. It's milled, it's kiln dried. It travels halfway across the country to a warehouse, then might get redistributed back to where it started from to a Home Depot or Lowe's or a lumber yard or something like that. And yet. Not so and so much of those steps in between those places that two by four has been and the ways it's traveled. Has been subsidized. Our highway system, our rail system, all of that has been subsidized by our taxpayer dollars over the last century. There is no such thing within the reef's world. You know that the train system was built to get raw materials across the country. Period.

[00:29:26] The highway system was built very systematically that the trucking system was was created very intentionally to move materials, to sell products. A part of the whole planned obsolescence movement coming out of the Great Depression. Planned obsolescence was extremely planned, but its cost on our overall economy and our wealth, the health of our our commune, local communities and our environment has been catastrophic. Now you compare a two by four that comes out of a house that's being deconstructed and goes down the street to a local radio center. It will likely be twice as much because it's being taken apart by hand. People are getting paid real wages for it. It gets transported a mile away to a reuse center where there are jobs being created to resell this stuff and it goes in and someone can buy it.

[00:30:22] Now that 2 by 4 has seen the difference is amazing and it's because there are no subsidies in place. There are no incentives, either tax or otherwise, to help create a reused economy that can match the economy that was built systematically and. With great strategy to keep the prices of raw materials low.

[00:30:53] If we do if we put that kind of energy and effort and strategy into how we how we can keep our existing materials low priced and low cost so reuse becomes economically viable. That's the game changer. You know, so it's it's really a it's not about how do we, you know, how do we drive down the price of that salvage two by four, by having, you know, by paying someone less to pull the nails out? It's how do we create an entire system? That supports that and brings the cost down.

Katie Whalen [00:31:35] Yeah, though, as you as you're saying, the system is not designed for the reverse. It's only for one way.

Joe Connell [00:31:42] One way pipeline. When I was working at the Rio Centers in Portland that I ran, we had someone call us once. I was a major distributor of materials for the Northwest. He called and he said, I just received a shipment of sheet rock screws. Thirty pallets of sheet rock screws, all in a little 20 pound boxes.

[00:32:08] And he said the when we started picking them up, the glue seal on the bottom of the boxes weak. So you pick it up the box and fall apart in the screws and all that, he said. So we called the manufacturer and told him this problem. And he said, I'm sorry, we had a little bit of problem with the glowing machine. Go ahead and throw those away and we'll give you credit for it. You know, just nothing wrong with the screws. It was the packaging was off.

[00:32:37] And because the manufacturer had no way his facility had no way of taking a box of screws, dumping it back into whatever manufacturing system they had so that it went back into fresh boxes, it was cheaper and easier and more convenient for them to just say, throw it away and we'll send your stuff. Oh, boy. Gets me going.

Katie Whalen [00:33:02] I was at a course recently and one of the girls there was talking about how she had had a similar experience with her toaster. And this is a company that's gone on record talking about the importance of Circular economy. And then they said, oh, okay Yeah, sorry about that. We'll just send you a new one. And she's like, "I don't want to do what? I just want mine to be repaired.".

Joe Connell [00:33:25] Yep.

Katie Whalen [00:33:26] So, yeah, we have our work cut out for us.

Joe Connell [00:33:29] Yes, we do. We do indeed. And it's gonna take a lot of people working together to make that shift.

Katie Whalen [00:33:36] Yeah. Definitely. As we start to wind down. Could you tell me about what's next for the industry, what needs to happen?

Joe Connell [00:33:46] There are other people doing research on different ways to use materials. For example, CLT, cross laminate timbers. There are people looking at how CRA how reused used lumber could be could be used in CLT manufacturing. There's other ways in which I think there are engineering students and and architects, students starting to grapple with the built environment from a much more holistic and systematic way of thinking rather than our historic. Constructors and REE users thinking in in more localized ways. And it's part of what I'm planet. What I'm getting at it when I say we need to bring the bring the two together.

[00:34:42] We don't want the engineers and architects and these brilliant students going off and off thinking that corporate corporate change is the only thing that's gonna gonna make make the difference.

[00:34:59] But we can't stay where we are, where it's a lot of little isolated local individuals and local organizations and businesses trying to create the impact. Somehow we need to move forward together.

Katie Whalen [00:35:12] Yeah. Definitely. Before we wrap up, I ask all of the guests that come on about the In the Loop events that they would create. So for the listeners who haven't played In the Loop, you probably have heard by now that this is the sort of final wrap up question that I ask the guests. And essentially, when you're playing the game, there's different events that happen and they change the sort of the market conditions. They can impact the material availability or technological innovation or they can be circular policies that actually incentivize different, different things. So now you've had a little bit of time to think. Joe, I don't know if you- Have you decided on what your In the Loop event would focus on?

Joe Connell [00:36:04] Oh, and so hard. Here's a dream I've had that I don't know if you can turn into a card or not, but I'll ask you that. I'd love to be able to call my local lumber yard and say I need a lift of two by fours delivered next Friday. And the guy who's picked up the phone says, great. Do you want virgin or used?

Katie Whalen [00:36:30] So you have a choice about the type of material that you can use.

Joe Connell [00:36:34] Yes. Down to the level of local lumber yard saying, yeah, you want used or new.

Katie Whalen [00:36:40] Yeah. Okay. So I think we could work that into some future versions of the game in some sort of way that the consumers, they get more choices. And some of these choices are new used, local, global. So thank you so much. Joe, where can listeners go to learn more about you and the topics that we discussed?

[00:37:03] Well, then go to our Web site BMRA.org. Find a lot of information there. We have a library there which has a lot of information. Forgive us. It's not very well organized. We're working on that, but there's a lot in there. The other way, of course, is our annual conference, Deconstruction and Reused 19 will be October 28, 29th and 30th Pittsburgh where we gather a couple hundred of the most amazing constructors and reused people from around the country and Europe and even Australia sometimes. Sof you are excited about what you heard today. Please check out our conference.

[00:37:46] That's all for today's episode. And thanks, Joe, for coming on the show. Don't forget about our Earth Day giveaway. You have until May 1st to leave a review on our items page. Head over to the showdown at gettinginthelooppodcast.com to learn more about the giveaway as well as topics we discussed in today's episode. I'll be announcing the winners next week. Until then, have a great week.