SEE THE SHOW NOTES AND LISTEN AT: What is a Critical Raw Material and Can We Learn Strategic Materials Management from Historical Examples? with David Peck

 

Katie Whalen [00:00:00] Getting in the Loop Podcast, episode 1: What is a critical raw material and can we learn strategic materials management from historical examples with David Peck?

 

[00:00:15] Hi, I'm Katie Whalen and join me each week as I talk with experts around the globe about Circular economy. You'll find out what's being done to make it a reality and if it can really solve the problems it promises. It's time for Getting in the Loop.

 

[00:00:37] Thank you for tuning in to one of the first ever episodes of Getting in the Loop. I'm thrilled you have joined and I have some exciting episodes lined up for you coming your way soon. Today on Getting in the Loop, we're talking with David Peck, who is an associate professor at Delft University at the Faculty of Architecture and Built Environment in the Netherlands. Dave is one of the original Circular economy researchers at TU Delft and has been a driving force behind many of the marks and research projects that have been carried out there over the past five years. Today on the show, we're talking about a topic often linked to Circular economy, critical materials. Dave explains what this term even means, why critical materials should be considered, and that it's not that we're simply running out of materials in the world. We also dive into what we can learn from the British response to material shortages in World War Two. So without further ado, David Peck. Well, I'm really excited to have- Should I call you Professor David Peck or Dr. Professor Dr. David Peck.

 

David Peck [00:01:42] Oh, just Dave. Just call me Dave. You know, I'm in Holland here. Everything's very flat. So I don't need-

 

Katie Whalen [00:01:53] Okay. Well, Dave Peck on this show today. And I think it's really fitting that we have Dave on the show as one of the first guests, because if it wasn't for him In the Loop probably would not exist.

 

David Peck [00:02:09] You did all the work. You did. I just came along for the ride.

 

Katie Whalen [00:02:16] So maybe you can shed some light on this topic of critical materials. Can you give us a brief overview of what this term means?

 

David Peck [00:02:25] It might help with starting what it doesn't mean, because there's some popular perceptions because they rapidly get bundled up with a bunch of other words like scarce materials. And strategic materials and technology materials, as well as a whole bunch of language all around it, but one of the things that it shouldn't be in any way is immediately running out. So that we'll just suddenly go for these materials and then there are none. There's nothing. But that is is has been fairly widespread in the narrative. And I was even looking at some materials this morning. Been online and still that especially the media, the general media love running out story. It's it's extremely popular in the world, especially in the U.K. at the moment. Everything is going to run out. Critical materials. Not by rolling out. And then so what is it? And that's where it all gets a little bit more complex, but I often start when I explain. And this is where you have to do a little bit of imagination. So we still have a two access graph. And on the bottom line, this would be a scale of economic importance. So if we didn't have a hope band with the financial and economic hit. And then you go on this axis and up here you would have a scale of risk of supply and security. In other words, not getting that material when you would like to have it or in the quantities you would like to have it. That's generally how it's been done. That's the methodology that's been applied for well over 20 years now. And that's generally how we define criticality. Many people are on a lot further work, particularly colleagues from Yale, Tom Gray Doe and his team in this. He's retired. Many of these teams took his own doing great work out there and they had a third axis. If you imagine it's coming out in a third axis, this single vertical horizontal third axis and this third axis coming out was environmental impact. The challenge with that? Well, the first thing is I like X. I think environmental impacts are really important. But the challenge with it is the two axis model is super complicated. Already put in the third axis on makes a more complicated. So what do you get then? Get where you get a long list of materials. And the story gets complicated again because the majority of the lists of those materials are actually also elements of the periodic table of elements. Everybody remembers that. Scientists already, they'll they'll know from high school the periodic table of elements up in the chemistry lab getting on for nearly half. I'm talking about Europe now from the U.S. So the EU has been doing this assessment. U.S. government has been doing it. And also countries around the world know about half of those elements, nearly half, not quite almost that we use in everyday life in all sorts of products. About half of them are now critical and they've been getting more and more critical lived on a number of assessments. I wouldn't go through the whole list because it is quite alarmist if you name all the elements. But once you once you look at that list, does it mean for society? Well, one of the problems is the simplest set. There are invisible elements. My material scientist colleagues get really upset about I not sectors. Surface elements are not visible to society. They're often invisible because they're embedded into products.

 

[00:06:12] So you get weird materials like near to me and disposing them into Yemen. And also some materials like that. Sorry, I don't know what they are. It I know where they go with actually. You're using one now. Watching this picture Oscars because they invest in a laptop computer or mobile phone. So there in all sorts of technologies and this is the key finishing point of this question. If we don't have them in in the way that we need of one of them, we're going to have difficulty meeting the climate change goals that we need to meet, especially with me living in Holland, you know, so I'm below sea level here.

 

[00:06:50] I kind of get a bit worried about the sea level rise because, you know, it doesn't work so well. If the sea is here and I'm trying to do the podcast, just-.

 

Katie Whalen [00:06:59] Because you're below water, is that what you're saying?

 

David Peck [00:07:02] Yeah. Yeah. I can't breathe. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

 

Katie Whalen [00:07:07] If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that these materials are deemed critical by different governing bodies, depending on their economic importance and their risk of supply disruption and potentially on who's doing the assessment. There are some environmental aspect as well.

 

David Peck [00:07:30] Yeah. And it really matters because. For those people who are in love with the tech and there are many, it may make that more a lot more difficult. People like me, I get seriously worried about how do we keep the lights on and generate non fossil fuel renewable energies to try and keep this planet going in. A lot of these materials are essential for these technologies. The answers to the big challenges of the 21st century lie. These materials.

 

Katie Whalen [00:08:02] Fascinating. How new is this idea? Is this something that we're only facing now or have we faced this in the past?

 

David Peck [00:08:11] Yeah. Well, the short answer is it is not new. And the long answer is the current situation we have is much newer. Let me explain. Humans have always faced challenges of resource constraint and we can actually see where this has happened in the past. Whole civilizations collapsing. So it's not fully understood from from ancient history, but certain civilization, I think the Mayan or Aztec. So I can't remember which one. But anyway, they they faced a big problem with food production. I seem to recall other civilizations have faced problems with water or other resources as well. All the other material, there was a material change in history. And then suddenly the materials had to run. The goods moved somewhere else. So. So not having what you want when you want it or not having it around you and what you say is the human thing since the get go since well anyway, since we started using stone tools or other tools we use. So that's quite old. The in the other at the other axis is the model, the economic importance. Well again since we've had economies. So I would say the more modern model of economy was since the Renaissance in the 17th century, 16th, 17th century then. Then really since we've had those types of economies, we regularly have challenges to resources and it's had economic implications of not being able to get stuff is a problem. We also regularly go to war over it. That's something that's not written about in the past as well. Yes. So that's that's old. And that that was seen particularly in the 20th century as well, which, you know, we can talk about the current this this two axis model and this definition that I was talking about, criticality is really a sort of 21st century thing. So the early part of this century, between 1999 to 2006, this was beginning to form.

 

[00:10:19] And after about 2006, 2007, we got it fairly defined as we have it now. So that's quite new. And of course, the materials that I'm talking about, these strange name technology materials, that's the late 20th, early 21st century phenomenon. Before, though, then they were just a chemistry lab, scientific interest. We were not using them a great deal. Technology has changed. Demand for these materials change. So in that way, the whole topic right now is super new. In another way, materials and constraint is super old.

 

Katie Whalen [00:10:59] Exactly. So it's kind of a it's a very interesting position and it's really yeah, it's quite challenging to take to get a hold of because we've always been dealing with this. But now because of the different types of technology and sustainable energy technology, these types of things, they're relying on more and more materials that you're saying. And those are materials that we then have some some challenges facing us in the coming years.

 

[00:11:29] Yes. And those challenges are not easy to think. They're getting hard. One of the things I've been looking at and I know the European Union's been looking to this because the U.N. has developed these is the sustainable development goals. So if anyone doesn't know, then you get onto your search engine and type in U.N. sustainable development goals and you don't pop straight up and there's 17 goals and then you sort go through the list of things, which in a way, because the goals there were also massive challenges for all of life on the planet in the 21st century. And many, many, many of them have a direct relationship with with critical materials challenges. So, for example, that they say let's end conflict. Well, we know from human history, and that's still the case. You know, some people have got stuff and some people have and therefore, they go to war. So that's fairly unfortunately very common. It's very common also in some countries. We've seen that happening in Africa and other parts of the world. If you look at some, as I mentioned already, climate that's important.

 

[00:12:39] If we look at pollution and the effects on the ecology, it's massive not only extracting and processing raw material, but also the use and the energy you can consume and also the amounts, the volumes, volumes over time. That's really important that some of the bigger effect on life, those in water and unknown lines is massive. So you start going through all this sort of shopping list of what we should do on this planet. Coming up to 20, 30 up to 2050 timelines. And then these materials are essential. But if you like, I sometimes call it Homer Simpson moment. You know where he goes. You can do this. And then he goes, Oh. And then he goes, No, I'm going to do that. Oh. So a good example again is what we can do is we can get ourselves off fossil fuels because what we can do is use renewable energy technologies and then everybody.

 

[00:13:37] Yeah, that's great. Let's do that. Let's let's generate all our power using solar and wind and also solar technology is fantastic. There you go. Have you done the math on the material requirement? And then there's like, oh, my goodness, dentist needing a colossal amount because we're watching shifting how we generate our power. And in your life, a lot that that's not adding up in the way I wanted to. That is the moment where it doesn't it doesn't work out.

 

Katie Whalen [00:14:04] Exactly. There was that there was that report that came out of the Netherlands. In fact, I think it was metabolic. And that was really at the climate meeting this past December.

 

David Peck [00:14:16] Yes, it was December. Yes. Metabolic Operate and Leiden University to the joint report. And T.A., the Dutch research agency also did a report as well on a similar thing. So, yeah, there's this thing for quite a while, a realization that things are hard to add up in the way that we won. And by the way, one of the big drivers, like you mentioned, is global population. So we you know, we we are a 7 billion will go towards a 10 billion world. And in that as well, well, thankfully, billions are being lifted out of poverty all over the world. But of course, where they live, lift out of poverty. And before we know where they are, they're sitting in hotels, in their kitchens, talking to each other, which is fantastic, which I love that everyone can do that. But then we talk about global material demand to do all that stuff. So that's a really big challenge.

 

Katie Whalen [00:15:07] Exactly. You've talked a little bit about in the past how we've been facing maybe not similar material material challenges, but we've faced material shortages before. And I know that you've carried out extensive investigation into the British response during World War 2 to materials shortages. Could you tell us a little bit more about the research that you did in terms of what types of materials shortages they were facing? And how did they respond to that?

 

David Peck [00:15:39] Yeah. I'll first well, tell a quick story of how I got to that. So how did I get from these technology materials today to talking about it? As it was, I had a focus on furniture and the second war. So how did that work? Well, why said was some. First of all, I was reading a lot of stuff and know nobody's really coming up with robust approaches on governments, companies and society can really address this challenge of critical materials. It wasn't convincing. And the other big problem was, sorry, there's no big national case studies to look at to say, oh, well, if we go to this part of the world, if we go to this country here, you know, it's completely been solved because they did this strategy. So therefore, we can benchmark that copy that. We've got nothing to go on. And so that's a lot that that's so struck me as a bit of a problem. So my thought was, well, maybe history can show us something. So I stopped looking back through time. So I'll start with the 20th century at the tail end of it and stop going back.

 

[00:16:49] And I found lots of case studies, all sorts of interesting ones with all kinds of different materials and all sorts of different reasons. Normally, generally around political ideals, ideologies like communism, the Soviet Union or the Eastern Bloc or conflicts.

 

[00:17:09] So the Balkans conflicts or other wars and the possible where there was severe resource constraint, it was on the national scale and societies and governments and companies come up with solutions. But I wanted it on a very big scale something and well, I can't have a global in question mark. I can have it on quite a big scale on a launch date for a very long, prolonged period of time. And I wanted to cover everything and I wanted it to sort of address go in towards 50 percent less. So 50 percent less materials, 50 percent less energy in a relatively short timescale. So that I set myself some quite tough challenges with that. I think I knew from the get go where I was going to end up, which is bad research goes, but I tried to go through it since my ended up in the Second World War and I ended up in Britain.

 

[00:18:06] Actually, I did have to make a judgment call because when I looked at the data, Nazi Germany was a much better case study. Oh, really? I was a bit yeah. I was a bit weak because the results. Strain got worse and worse and worse, worse, and they had to get more, more and more strategies to try and solve the problem for me was moral and ethical. So what did I find? Well, what I found was due to you boats campaign in the North Atlantic in particular, Britain suffered a very steep and quick decline in in supply of resources, both fossil fuels, energy, oil in particular, and materials from all over the world.

 

[00:18:53] And bear in mind, some people go was a long time ago. So where was Britain so globally dependent? Well, actually, it was one it always been a global trading nation. And to have an empire, which you've traded extensively with the world. So it got very used to trading openly and relying a lot on import. That's the second I walk a lot. So I I looked up there and they were not self-sufficient in any way. And getting towards self-sufficiency in many, many cases was impossible because those resources were just not available in any sensible quantities. In Britain, for example, oil, they didn't have oil.

 

[00:19:38] They didn't have many other metals as well in any serious quantities and all sorts of other materials that they needed. So they then developed a range of policies and strategies in order to deal with that. Shall I go through what they were?

 

Katie Whalen [00:19:54] Yes, sure, it's super fascinating. I was just thinking with the parallels because I had never actually thought about the fact that they were this global empire. And they they they had had globalisation and they were relying on different materials, kind of like in our current situation.

 

David Peck [00:20:13] You know, this massive network and yeah, empires were controversial and quite early. So there's still a debate going on about empire. But one thing, they were forerunners of globalised economies. Exactly. In a totally different way. In many ways, it was there. Well, first of all, what materials were we talking about? Iron, copper, aluminum, nickel, chromium, zinc and tungsten was very important as well. And that was a challenge. What did they do? Well, they split it into three and they had actions around product design, which is what he was interested in, actions around production that his actions around the customers, the uses of the materials. And basically the list is quite interesting because they sort talked about, oh, use less material, make it lightweight, robust and long lasting, designed for repair, avoid specialised sorry, you'll use specified materials, but locally sourced where possible. So it's a whole bunch of stuff which for a start sign is very modern. But then there are other things which weren't. So you will be told what the design is. So only one designer will specify the design, which for product design and sense of maintenance and no ornamentation or decoration. So nothing fancy that's using materials in terms of production. The government took over complete control and this was termed time socialist design. So you can see why production location was specified. The materials were allocated not just to type materials, costume terms they would supply to you need a license to operate. Your labor was allocated so you didn't even higher on the open market tolls who you will get. And that's actually they were sent to you. You didn't even higher. They were sent to energy supply was constrained and controlled. Just so much energy you will normally from and the top volumes and timings were given to you if prices were fixed as well. And then for the cussed mess you could only get you couldn't get furniture. I focused on furniture, carpet. You couldn't get furniture that you wanted. You've got furniture that you needed. In other words, if you were bombed or you got married or you were having a baby, then you could have a reason why you needed some particular items of furniture. What you had to get the right performance in order to get some finances. For a start, you had to go to your local municipality and fill out some forms. Somebody could come and check so they might come around your house and check and you fill out the forms and then you had to. You apply to those forms to get coupons. Then when you got your coupons, you would go to a store. But the store didn't bother having anything on display. It just had a cow logo and they would just tell you what they had anyway. So even in the catalog, you might say, well, I like that one. Now I've got this. So you love that one. Yeah, but the prices were fixed and they were fixed quite low and the quality of the product was super good. And so they were built to last. They often use surprise because when I started, I thought it was all softwood and cheap wood and veneers and stuff. And it wasn't it was a lot of it was hard. Would it really robust about. Because the view was that we have to make stuff, the less problems. Why then look through the data is wonderful. This is all it was all secret, but it's all available openly online. Several years ago or severely secret cabinet minutes and stuff like this. But what they did was they were able to cope with more than 50 percent less in some cases 60, 70 percent less material, less energy.

 

Katie Whalen [00:24:08] Some of these strategies sound familiar to those that we keep talking about in terms of circular economy, you know, use less material designed for reuse.

 

David Peck [00:24:18] Yeah. Yeah, that was something I did in my PhD. I put the circular economy strategies down one column and then these strategies down the other and you can put the next week so distant in time and situation.

 

[00:24:32] But in terms of looking at them as it really struck me. My goodness, this is this is what we're talking about. So that really got me thinking that I show it as a face and say this is what they did. So with as we are, Dutch government policy says by 2030, we will halve primary material use, we will halve energy use, we will have our CO2 in order to me 2050 climate goals. I'm saying, OK, well, I can show you how in the case of the Second World War, they did all this in a six years. Lousy went in 1936 when they realized this Hitler guy is going to end badly. And they by forty three, they've got the policy in place. So there's about a six year run, half of which was during wartime and but, you know, then it would give us well, we could do this in the 10 years up to 20 say. So then I say, well, I can show you how it can be done.

 

[00:25:34] And then I show this case of what Britain did and said, my war. And everybody turns around and goes. Are you crazy? That's never going to work. Does stupid have a will have one designer for the entire Europe's furniture, one range of furniture. That's all you've got. Some would argue of some large companies do that already. But now a very limited range and limited focus. I just certain things really, really restricted and control. Everybody has coupons and rationing like Dave. This is not the second one was crazy. OK. So now we're having a debate about what you don't like in this case study. Exactly. You sit and you pick it all to pieces and you go actually, 80 percent of it.

 

[00:26:18] I don't like when I go where you're not going to get to half. So what do what do we want? If you everything you take out and say, I'm not going to do that, give me a solution to fix it. An alternative. That's when the conversation gets going to be difficult. Because it's like, yeah, I don't know. But we can't do that.

 

[00:26:41] OK, but we need to keep talking. And I think that's the solution if we keep having conversations, if we have mechanisms by which conversations are promoted. I know you've been really interested in this war as well. Then discussion will lead to new thinking. I don't know what that new thinking is because it seems to me very challenging. Getting to half is really difficult, as anyone knows in the New Year diets or whatever else that everybody's to offer is tricky.

 

Katie Whalen [00:27:13] That's why people hired hired personal trainers or accountability groups or things like that so that they can have some sort of outside influence is helping them. So. And that's kind of what I'm hearing in terms of the British government in the in the wartime shortage and material shortage. You know, having this sort of top down approach, which. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. If if we if we say no to that, then we need to start thinking about some other approaches. And that leads us to have a conversation. But what do you what is your feeling on on that?

 

David Peck [00:27:49] Well, one of the conversations that's beginning to stop now and it's been pushed by the European Union is being pushed by some governments like in Sweden, like in the Netherlands and other countries all over Europe is, oh, well, we can do this circular economy idea. So this Circular economy idea will solve this critical materials problem, right. An ongoing. I think we need to have more conversations. In theory, yes. I mean, I've always been enthusiastic about sustainability and circular economy. That's my thing. But I'm still working through this criticality challenge versus some of the more. Obvious and direct strategies in terms of circular economy and sustainable approaches. They wouldn't. The problem is sustainable approaches. Circular economy was not designed for the willingness of critical materials. And a lot of the strategies to help fencing, some of them make it worse.

 

Katie Whalen [00:29:02] Could you expand on that with an example?

 

David Peck [00:29:06] Right. Yeah. I'll give you a direct example, so sort of sustainable design guidelines with eco design guidelines which say use less material and of course us always infinitely sensible to therefore use less material. Say you, therefore you're using less energy, therefore the product will be lighter. Possibly again, which uses less energy sensor for the the addition of critical materials in a lot of materials. It's been likened to adding salt and pepper. So then or spices in food and then we're saying make superstitious, but with no salt, pepper, no spices. It's like actually it doesn't work. They're not very nice anymore. And in terms of materials, in terms of products, you then make them happier, more susceptible to corrosion, less robust, failed quick to find you. Sit there and go. These are all the things that you said you really didn't want to do is environmental design. You want a strong and robust corrosion resistant and long lasting and really good. Well, robust design products. And you got to know that you need the critical materials for that.

 

[00:30:22] The other one is in terms of, oh, let's make it solar and let's put batteries in there, let's make electric. And they go, right. You just give me a shopping list of things where I use more critical materials. But you said to use fewer materials.

 

[00:30:36] So, again, that's the. Do you remember the Homer Simpson amendment? That's another Homer Simpson moment. It's like, yeah, we can do that. No. Oh, look, these rules don't work the rules. I don't want to tie the rules up because they're really well thought through and they work for most materials. But critical materials are a spoiler and therefore they need a lot more understanding to produce the exceptions to the rule, which then means we can do what we need to do.

 

Katie Whalen [00:31:02] So what kind of advice would you give to. Yeah, if you're talking to designers and designers or listening or managers, they're listening, thinking, OK, what do I even do? Because if I do one thing, then there's the other side that's saying, no, you shouldn't be doing that. How do we go about doing any anything?

 

David Peck [00:31:20] You know, we you know, we seem frozen. What do we do? It's so complicated, so difficult. Well, we because we would say this wouldn't be from universities. Well, knowledge is the key. So if we understand more, we can then find solutions. So the first thing in knowledge is knowledge transmission, which is an old fashioned way of education. Well, what sort of things do we do in education? What we do? Lovely stuff like free online courses, massive open online courses.

 

[00:31:49] Yale University, my university joined together recently with other partners among recently, and there's many, many more besides. So so we have a look at their online filings, all sorts of super courses available. There's a lot of published materials for those sorts of boards and research centers in Sweden where you can explore and find out more.

 

[00:32:09] The other one I really like is, is education in classroom or in groups or workshops where we're using tools which are more fun as well, like serious gaming. So I think that works really, really well. And I've done a lot of work with you as well. Develop the muscle stuff and bring it to life, because the one of the things that I keep saying, engendering conversation based on the complexity of the facts, not a head fake, not conversations based on fake news or read what is a critical material or not, but around facts, the facts. Again, sometimes contradictory and difficult to handle. But, you know, people people are small. I mean, you can give them a whole bunch of complicated, wicked challenges and, you know, just let them go and they'll come up. Well, if we this is complicated, but if we do that and do that, do they you know, we're good at playing chess. That's got millions of permutations on it. It's the same with this. You know, we can find solutions. We can be very elegant. So I'm really super optimistic that we can find solutions.

 

Katie Whalen [00:33:20] Yeah, well, we're almost out of time. But one of the things that I do with all of my interview guests is to ask them about creating their own event for their own In the Loop game. So for the listeners who aren't familiar with In the Loop and in the game, there are different events and they're one of the most memorable parts of the game for those who have played. They changed the market conditions and they're inspired by real world happenings. So, Dave, you've used In the Loop quite a bit, and I'm sure you have tons of events that you you have in mind. But if you could think of one event that you would add?

 

David Peck [00:33:59] Yeah, I can. I'm laughing because, you know, I like to set the mobile phone alarm for the events, the time around, the events. And so so it's like real time sped up and like you said, set it for every five minutes or so. And every time the game is being played. And it's five minutes and the event alarm goes off, everybody goes, no, that was never five minutes, was it? You know so nobody believes that time is because it speeds up when you're playing. The game is such fun. So I love the events. Yes, I could have. I thought about this. I could have some crazy stuff like there'd be a new global trade war on metals, OK? I mean, who would think that would happen? You could have a member state of the European Union leaving the European Union without a deal. So I thought now that's really stretching it too far because those sorts of scenarios would never happen in the world. That would just be too crazy. And then there is the new EU regular European Union regulation coming into force on gold, tantalum, tungsten and tin, which finds the trade of those four materials from conflict, post conflict or regions of human rights abuse. So that's coming into force on January the 1st, 2021. And I thought it could be a cartel and an event called on that.

 

Katie Whalen [00:35:23] Yes, I think that would be brilliant.

 

David Peck [00:35:26] And I thought of another one about how Europe goes super circular. So actually all the Circular economy plans that got actually really take off in the countries of Europe and current critical materials production supply chains can't adjust fast enough to the changes in supply and demand lead that leads to problems such here. There's an optimistic twist in that that we go secular faster, but actually that in turn creates a materials challenge.

 

Katie Whalen [00:35:59] That is quite interesting to think about. I will consider these her future future versions of the game show.

 

David Peck [00:36:07] We'll discuss them.

 

Katie Whalen [00:36:08] I'm sure you will work through them. So thank you so much, Dave. And where can listeners go to learn more about you and some of the topics that we discussed?

 

David Peck [00:36:18] Yeah, my LinkedIn profile. So, David Peck, if you go in there and you find me in TU Delft in Holland, then have a look on there. And I think you've got lots of links on that and things and literature. I put more up on Google Scholar so the links are all there. We have a really on the TU Delft circular built environment hub. We have a nice home there as well. So have a look at that.

 

Katie Whalen [00:36:44] And that's all for today's episode of Getting in the Loop. Thanks for listening and thank you to David Peck for joining me. Show notes for this episode and other episodes can be found at gettinginthelooppodcast.com. And while you're there, subscribe to our mailing list to have new episodes delivered to your inbox every Monday. See you soon.